Gameplay ideas

[DerSaidin]

Hello.

While talking with a friend about trem gameplay I had a few ideas that you might like. Someone may well have suggested them for trem by now.

Basicly, the concept of bases is flawed for competitive play (and pub play to some extent) because it just ends up camping.

		Quote:
	00:23:37 <flamey> Would you agree that there's a design flaw for say competitive gameplay? 00:23:54 <DerSaidin> yep 00:24:00 <DerSaidin> camping the base is lame 00:24:14 <DerSaidin> the idea of building is cool 00:24:21 <DerSaidin> but its going to be campy 00:24:59 <DerSaidin> the only thing I can see that might work is if humans didn't have a base 00:25:01 <DerSaidin> just a spawn 00:25:06 <DerSaidin> a base you couldn't attack 00:25:13 <flamey> an armory? 00:25:16 <DerSaidin> yer 00:25:18 <DerSaidin> all that shit 00:25:23 <flamey> ah right 00:25:24 <DerSaidin> but invincible 00:25:26 <flamey> and how would you win? 00:25:33 <DerSaidin> theres a time limit 00:25:40 <DerSaidin> humans have to kill all the aliens 00:25:48 <DerSaidin> swap teams 00:25:56 <DerSaidin> whoever kills aliens fastest wins 00:26:03 <DerSaidin> but then aliens need some incentive to not just run away 00:26:24 <DerSaidin> I guess it does mean humans loose their gun 00:26:35 <DerSaidin> and they get evos 00:26:36 <DerSaidin> mmm 00:26:38 <DerSaidin> nar that works 00:26:46 <DerSaidin> aliens would still have a base humans would have to kill 00:26:50 <DerSaidin> and some forward areas to hold 00:26:57 <DerSaidin> that have switches that open doors 00:27:02 <DerSaidin> humans need to get to their base 00:27:12 <DerSaidin> but aliens can get out to the switches to fight there 00:27:15 <DerSaidin> that'd be pretty good 00:27:42 <flamey> Sounds like a decent idea for a mod 00:27:50 <DerSaidin> well, I'm not doin it. 00:28:05 <flamey> You wouldn't be changing much of the fundamentals there would you? 00:28:13 <DerSaidin> no 00:28:13 <flamey> hah, of course. 00:28:16 <DerSaidin> you'd need new maps 00:28:20 <DerSaidin> the steps would be: 00:28:28 <DerSaidin> make human base invincible and prebuilt 00:28:38 <DerSaidin> make stopwatch mode 00:28:48 <DerSaidin> make switch entity controlling a door entity 00:28:56 <DerSaidin> design/build/edit/adapt maps for that game mode 00:29:49 <flamey> Doesn't sound all that complicated.

[FrameShifter]

Lol, for a moment there, i thought that was me xD, and I didn't remember talking bout that with u. I think there was sum discussion regarding that a long time ago, but back then (and right now too, methinks) nobody cared to do anything about it. However, i think there was a mode at Amsterdam Unlimited (might still be there) to have aliens protect prebuilt eggs for as long as possible against prebuilt humans. They couldn't kill their base, so it was pretty much like you described. But, there was no time limit for alien victory, and everything was free, so 95% of the time, it was a tyrant/goon+ vs chainsuit/lucy/jetcamper. The whoring part ruined it, but it's a proof that someone tried :p

[DerSaidin]

Everything being free would ruin it.

Also having switches as objectives would be an important improvement. Then humans have to run in and attack something, and they have to achieve that multiple times; say 2 switches + base.

When humans are attacking the first switch, everyone is at S1. When attacking second switch, everyone gets S2. When attacking the base, everyone is S3.

Neither team can just whore it because they need to be concerned with each objective.

[flamey]

I would first like to mention that the "flamey" in that conversation is not me.

The biggest problem I see in Tremulous is camping, more so on the Humans part.  The designers of Tremulous unintentionally engineered it that way to solve a common problem:  One race is short ranged and the other long ranged.  Being long ranged is a MASSIVE advantage, one that must be countered if the gameplay is to be balanced.

What the Tremulous dev's did to balance the Human vs Alien gameplay is to make the Humans have lower HP, slower movement speed, and not be able to heal except with a medkit/medistration.  In doing so the Humans are now "base-tied".  They are far to dependent on their base and require it to heal and to attack (aka: ammunition and medistration).

When designing a strategy-based video game there is a simple rule that should always be followed: "Give player incentives to do something, rather than requiring them to do it" - Copyright (C) Electric Eye Productions 2010.  All Rights Reserved.

Applying this rule to Tremulous the Humans should have incentives to go back to base rather than being required to go back to base.  So, make it so that the Humans have a +1/sec Health regeneration rate.  That way Humans don't have to go back to base, but can IF they want to heal faster via the Medistration.

There are several other places this principle could be applied to the Tremulous gameplay.  I do not plan to list them all, so have fun speculating at the possibilities.

If the Tremulous dev's where to follow this simple principle the gameplay would be more balanced, have more strategy, fewer flaws, and overall a better game.

EDIT:  Feel free to show the Tremulous dev's this post.  I'm to lazy to go tell them.

[StalKer]

I personally believe that camping is a fundamental strategy in trem but right now I'd like to say how much this idea reminds me of blackout and the fact that humans had no actual base per se but just a few spawns and the fact that they had all the objectives to complete.

[flamey]

		Quote:			Sent by StalKer on 07/20/10, 03:59 AM
	I personally believe that camping is a fundamental strategy in trem

Ummm...  The entire post was about not requiring players to do something, but rather giving them incentives to do so.

So, rather than requiring a team to camp under specific scenarios, give them incentives to do so.  That way under certain circumstances camping may be a good choice, but isn't the ONLY choice.  Teams would have several other optional tactics that could be enacted rather than camping.  That way there is more strategy to the game.  

Take the Mass Driver and the Lass Gun for example.  The Lass Gun is preferable to many players because its easier to hit your target.  On the other hand the Mass Driver is harder too use but can be much more effective IF you know how to use it.  In other words there are incentives to use both the Lass Gun and the Mass Driver, and the game does not REQUIRE you to use one or the other.  Because of this many strategies are added to the game.

Under this principle (incentive rather than requirement) is where ANY strategy is added to a game.  No strategy can be added to a game without (knowingly or unknowingly) following this principle.

Does that make more sense?  

[UniqPhoeniX]

No. The problem is that humans can camp even if they don't have to, and can make the game boring that way. Most of the time the humans (and sometimes aliens) could easily attack with minimal risk of losing and possibly even win, but they don't, and they don't have to.
Implement domination, with 8+ strategical locations to capture per map, each giving some resources (funds slowly and a few locally useable bps). It will divide up the campers, and allow the more aggressive team to focus their attack, and take a Domination Point even if it is camped. If a team has only 1-2 DPs captured, their enemy will gain an advantage and will still be able to effectively attack, without ending up as all dretches/rifles.

PS bold needs to be more... bold

[flamey]

		Quote:			Sent by UniqPhoeniX on 07/20/10, 11:37 AM
	No. The problem is that humans can camp even if they don't have to, and can make the game boring that way. Most of the time the humans (and sometimes aliens) could easily attack with minimal risk of losing and possibly even win, but they don't, and they don't have to.

I think it goes both ways.  Humans can camp regardless of the situation, but they can also be forced to camp.

I think that if the Humans where less "base-dependent" and the aliens had more variety than just "short-ranged high-damage brutes" that camping would not be as big of an issue.  

For example: give the Humans +1/sec Health regeneration rate and create a class of aliens whose default attacks are long-ranged.  That gives Human players the ability to stay away from the base longer, and gives the aliens the ability to destroy a Human base thats filled with campers.

Seeing as the humans have both long-ranged and short-ranged weapons, why not give the aliens classes of both short-ranged and long-ranged default attacks?

Also, your idea of having multiple bases is excellent.  Waypoint-based battles would add a lot of new strategy and would make it hard to camp.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Yes, they can be forced to camp, but that is not a problem. If they are forced, then that is a decision made by the aliens. The problem is that they can camp nearly indefinitely. Making them less base dependent *might* get them out a little more often, but it doesn't solve the problem (which is the *ability* to camp). You could make bsuits and chainguns cost 20 cred and some would still camp.

[flamey]

		Quote:			Sent by UniqPhoeniX on 07/20/10, 03:30 PM
	Yes, they can be forced to camp, but that is not a problem. If they are forced, then that is a decision made by the aliens. The problem is that they can camp nearly indefinitely. Making them less base dependent *might* get them out a little more often, but it doesn't solve the problem (which is the *ability* to camp). You could make bsuits and chainguns cost 20 cred and some would still camp.

Very good point.  However, I think that adding a class of aliens with defaulted long-range attacks would neutralize the ability to camp indefinitely.  Alternatively, a suiciding alien that does massive splash damage could also do the trick.

But, if Humans can't "camp-on-demand" without being invaded by explchoding/long-ranged aliens they need something to make them less base-dependent.  Thats where things like health regeneration come in.

I thoroughly enjoy your insights btw.  

[UniqPhoeniX]

It'd be best to not make the teams any more similar then is needed IMO. I'm hoping domination would be enough, and long range aliens/regenerating humans would not be required. Also, I think suicide bombing aliens would probably not require much skill, unlike almost everything else in Tremulous.

Decreasing distances humans need to travel without rearming/healing would make humans still survive if forced out of base, tho they will be attacking alien outposts more often.

ASD on Amsterdam Unlimited implemented a domination system similar to this (mostly my idea and layouts), but it was never properly tested nor balanced, so the problem of getting a coder to implement and release this kind of domination remains
By now AU server has a lot more mods and several other AMP maps (CTF; a map where u have to unlock upgrades, then press a button underground mid-map 5x after pressing 1 in enemy towers; snowvalley3-b2 converted to a small mission; etc)

Also the game mode described in the first post matches blackout pretty well, which I was also a part of ^_^ Once again, no coder for AMP.

		Quote:
	"Give player incentives to do something, rather than requiring them to do it"- Copyright (C) Electric Eye Productions 2010.  All Rights Reserved.

It works for making players like doing something instead of thinking of it as a chore, but it doesn't stop them from doing it if they want to (to delay defeat for example).
Camping only becomes a real problem if used when alternatives are already available AND when it is making the game-play worse (boring/frustrating/etc).
Currently the average newb/noob knows that with camping they can delay defeat, but they have no real experience nor skill in rushing, and ofc Trem has a long learning curve. *Maybe* once the big majority of players plays actively, more new players can (doesn't mean noobs are willing to) learn more easily, and the camping problem gets significantly smaller.

[flamey]

		Quote:			Sent by UniqPhoeniX on 07/20/10, 11:32 PM
	It'd be best to not make the teams any more similar then is needed IMO. I'm hoping domination would be enough, and long range aliens/regenerating humans would not be required. Also, I think suicide bombing aliens would probably not require much skill, unlike almost everything else in Tremulous.

If that where the case the painsaw/flamer and dragoon-snipe should be removed.  You can still have opposite races while having both long-ranged and short-ranged attacks for each race.  There are many ways to do this, but for a simple example:  Have opposite tech-trees.  Make the aliens low-tech (stage 1) short ranged and the high tech (stage 3) long-ranged.  Have the Humans stage 1 long-ranged, and the stage 3 short ranged.

Also, on the "suicide bombing aliens" subject I think there could be TONS of skill required.  If you where to give it low-health and make it easy to see/shoot, it would take quite some talent to actually make it into the base to deal damage.  If a player was good he could hide on-top of a high ceiling and drop on top of a unsuspecting group of humans.  In another scenario, it could be used for base defense:  A large group of humans opens the door to the alien base on Tremor, and a explchoding alien runs out and explodes.  In yet another scenario a player does a basi-like hop on ATCS and blows up the RC.  ETC. ETC. ETC.

		Quote:			Sent by UniqPhoeniX on 07/20/10, 11:32 PM
	Camping only becomes a real problem if used when alternatives are already available AND when it is making the game-play worse (boring/frustrating/etc). Currently the average newb/noob knows that with camping they can delay defeat, but they have no real experience nor skill in rushing, and ofc Trem has a long learning curve. *Maybe* once the big majority of players plays actively, more new players can (doesn't mean noobs are willing to) learn more easily, and the camping problem gets significantly smaller.

I would not blame "camping without reason" just on the noobs.  It happens everywhere by everyone.  Also, there are scenarios where the humans are forced to camp, and there is NO way to leave the base without being swarmed and instantly killed regardless of your (or your teams) talent.

So, it goes both ways.  Humans camp when its unnecessary, making it frustrating and pointless for the aliens.  The aliens can camp the halls and outer-base making it frustrating and pointless for the humans.  Tremulous needs to be fixed for both problems.

Making the Humans less base-dependent would help release the "forced-camping" scenario.  A long-ranged or suiciding alien would help resolve the "camping without reason" scenario.

Perhaps the Humans should have a purchase-able "stim-pack" that allows them to loose health in exchange for faster movement.  Everyone has been in those scenarios where RANT after RANT runs in, kills 20 people, and BARELY escapes using charge.  If the humans had a way of countering that (aka, stim-pack) it would help relieve the "forced-camping" scenario.

Or, perhaps a weapon that has a "concussion" feature that slows down units hit by the weapon by a small degree, giving the humans the time needed to catch the running rant.  Something like a RPG.

Alternatively, give the Tesla Generators a slowing ability.  That way they not only do damage, but they make it so that rants AND goons can't killwhore in the human base and escape.

As for the "camping without reason" scenarios just simply add a alien whose default attack is long ranged, a explchoding alien, or both.  Seeing as the adv-goon already has a long-ranged secondary attack, I don't think the long-ranged default attack would be that big of a step.

[UniqPhoeniX]

IMO, psaw/flamer/barb are fine as small exceptions, they add significantly more variety without making either team close to having near equal amounts of long and short range weaponry.

If you were to give the kamikaze alien low hp and make it easy to see/shoot, it would be utterly useless against campers, which was supposed to be it's whole purpose. What I meant was, that if it can get into a camped base and deal significant damage, then it is going to be an extremely easy to use class, since it could be used to take out a non camped base very quickly.

(I'm not blaming only noobs for camping, I'm just saying that noobs (not newbs) are the least likely to change.)

As I said, if humans are forced to camp, that is a decision made by the aliens. I have many times asked my team to let the humans out of base so I could attack from the other path. And it often works when my team lets them out. On larger maps it is often best for aliens to not camp near the human base, but to camp near the alien base, thus letting humans out and still not giving them much chance (tho a consistent player will eventually get past that due to bad teamwork on alien side, and since many more paths need to be covered).

Making humans less base dependent will only have a significant effect when aliens are camping far from human base, since if they are just outside the door, humans can just as well use their base. But when aliens are camping far from humans, then in most cases they can't cover every path all the time.

About escaping rants/goons: the ones that escape usually get to deal a lot less damage then the ones who fight to death, since they need health left to survive the running away part. Tho yes they give nothing good to the humans and can attack again, I don't think they are big enough of a problem to care about. Slowing down will take away the only thing aliens have against the long range of humans: mobility. Sometimes aliens have to use such careful tactics, like when they can't afford a good enough rush, or when the humans are camping, waiting for aliens to run low on evos so they can rush with their full team chain/lucisuit army. Besides, dealing some good damage and getting away with it is fun.

Aliens already have a long ranged alien that is good for hit & run tactics (+goon), so why add another? I think domination will take care of the problem of campers easily and make the whole game much more dynamic.

[Hendrich]

I've been playing around with an idea lately. I see you guys have been trying to shape factors that makes Tremulous what it is, but why not change one of it's fundamentals?

I've been thinking, what would happen if rather then accumulating Evos/Credits, all the classes can be obtained from the get-go? I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere before, but hear me out for a moment.

Code:

Lets ask ourselves, why does camping work? Because the camper has an advantage over the opponent. What is keeping the camper there? Probably because their teammates are there for backup, they have a temporary base that benefits them and the area around them gives them an edge

Lets take a couple of humans in ATCS, camping in the hallways near the Alien base, with a turret, repeater and a medistat. They have been doing good to kill a few aliens based on their skill and now have decided to stay there until they have the time for a rush.What keeps them there is that they can rack up credits, so if they die, they have the opportunity to come back with better/the same gear.

So the aliens decide to try to attack another front (aka The Entrance) but with atleast one defender and a bunch of turrets, it makes leaving your base and your team to the wrath of a bunch of humans (Which can rush the base at any moment) seems like a bad idea.

This is a problem because as the alien team tries desperately to get them, theres a good chance they would die and waste evos as the human team gains credits. Their base helps them stay there, so it would be beneficial to weaken their base as they do damage to the humans.

What is stopping them from continuing to weaken their base until the human's defense is dropped? Evos. Once the team as a whole is unable to evolve into the stronger classes, the humans could have the time to afford better gear and the balance is now in their favor more then ever.

The humans gradually goes in, a rush is unanimously formulated once Human moral is boosted and then the humans win by destroying the alien base.

This was how a good chunk of my recent games played out, to be honest.


What I am proposing is the idea of Tremulous dropping their rank-style system. Ranks create progression, and usually progression affect's the game's pacing for the better or for worse. It makes the game dynamic and addictive, but makes the learning curve very high and difficult to get into. With set "classes", each team can continue to build and rush with less consequences. (aka "Streamlining", lol)

Sure, there would be low-skilled feeders who would continue to rush mindlessly, but a feeder with capable gear is better then a feeder who is weak and gives the other team accumulative upgrades. With classes, the feeder would only give the team a higher Kill count, thats it.

Each Class will play role and each will be balanced accordingly. We don't want everyone picking B-suits and Tyrants because they are obviously strong, so each class will have it's nerfs/buffs and will be intended to help in some way. Like the lone Tyrant would be slower with lower health regeneration/HP, but the dretch will have a huge HP buff and be a little bigger (aka Near-basilisk) size. The Lucifer would be nerfed to do more damage on buildings and less damage on enemies and the rifle will be more useful, bla bla bla bla bla etc etc You get the drift.

Also, each class will have atleast one "special skill" which makes their roles useful (More like abilities, like the sniper uses a thermal scope, etc. Something small to give them an edge for their roles.

The aliens will have atleast one "ranged attack" which may or may not replace their default special skill. Why? Because with classes, humans would be prone to be able to place buildables wherever they want when they already have gear when they spawn, like a dretch shooting our a web that does small damage but slows ppl, etc.

"Stages" would still be kept, but how they are obtained would be different. Even though I still yet have to play any of the AMP-powered maps, I like the idea of getting to objectives in the map environment.

Why not make it so you can move up to high stages by completing objectives? For example, everyone would start out as Stage one. To move onto Stage two, the humans need to fix a power generator to activate certain illumination for areas. For the aliens, they need to "infect" an area long enough to infest it with creep, causing hazards to grow for the humans. Once the objective is completed, you can choose advanced classes and move on to the next objective.

Both teams, at any time, can interfere with each other's objectives. Each side would have the incentive to stop the other because completing an objective would change the map to their benefit AND moves them up a stage. It wouldn't make the opponent obtain an instant win, but nobody wants to give the opponent a chance to become stronger so they can over power the other.

Progression in Tremulous made it possible for one side to dominate an other so a stalemate would not occur often. This would work the same way.

The very last objective would be made to finally cripple each other's defenses (Anything, lol). This would be made because if otherwise, both teams are most likely to cause a stalemate with infinite class respawns and Stage 3.

This would also give the team an incentive to do the objectives quickly so they can get the chance to complete the last objective to weaken the other''s defenses. If both teams complete the last objective, then without a strong base to nurture each team, constant rushing with both sides will eventually lead to one being victorious.

This would "help" stop camping, but also greatly increases the pacing of the game, reduces the learning curve, makes the gameplay more focused on where to go and what to do and makes it different from what Dark Legion has.

kthx

Damn, I made it long. I pity the soul who decides to read all that tiny text so:

TL;DR Each team will have classes and each will be balanced TF2-style. Separate objectives for each team are set in place and completing an objective will make the enemy stronger and the map change to benefit the winning team, until the last objective heavily cripples/nerfs (not destroy) the other's defense.

I believe this idea is good because:

Code:

-It makes the game more focused with objectives and classes will have a role to play out. This negates player confusion on what and where they should be to help the team.

-Noone should be "overpowered". Each class should be strong and weak for different situations.

-It makes the pacing faster, especially when each side has the gear to rush each other continually and thus reducing camping. But to help deter that, objectives are set so it wouldn't get too chaotic and like flamey said, this isn't forced on the player but it would be in their best interests to partake.

-Makes it easier to get into. By removing what made Tremulous great with something....different, it greatly reduces the learning curve and broadens horizons for newcomers.

-Aliens would have an alternate ranged attack, so the gameplay style-gap is reduced and the human advantage of range wouldn't be such a problem.

-Because it would be cool, no?

The disadvantages of it tho, are:

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-Like I said before, it removes what made Tremulous addictive as crack.[desc=After four years, doing the same shit gets boring, even with balance changes and new maps.](Or, atleast, used to.)[/desc]

-It sounds like those stupid "Total Overhaul" mods in Tremulous.net in Mod Idea Palace (Yea, those.)

-It requires much less assets as in models, sounds, etc and such (We can remove the environmental changes for the sake of not having to make new resources) but maps need to either be drastically revamped or new ones to be made and requires [desc=Someone will have to suck ioquake3's fat cchode.]shit loads of cchoding[/desc].

-Etc, make up some criticism, please?

/twocents

P.S I couldn't add anything to the above discussion because all I could remember was terrorist-style suicide aliens, stim packs which can be bought like crystal meth and ASD leaving some domination system to die like Epic did in UT3.



So yeah, cheers.

[UniqPhoeniX]

		Quote:
	I still yet have to play any of the AMP-powered maps

WHAT GET TO IT NAO
Overall I don't like the idea of making everything into free classes, removes too much depth. Also requires everything to be rebalanced. It will basically be a whole new game...

[namlusum]

		Quote:			Sent by UniqPhoeniX on 07/20/10, 11:32 PM
	ASD on Amsterdam Unlimited implemented a domination system similar to this (mostly my idea and layouts), but it was never properly tested nor balanced [...]

I already tested *ASD's domination point mod* many times (and I LOVE IT  ). It just rocks, humans don't camp, it add some fun in the game and make it more strategic (and longer  ) . I think that it could be an issue for the camp problem, but of course, layouts must be good ... 

[Demonwolf]

You know, i haven't read any posts from here in a while and now that i've read some i've realised that a lot of things you are suggesting korx has something very similar to and korx is surprisinly balanced despite all the things they have given each team. So i suggest looking at korx for a bit to see what they have that works and always include a counter ability/power/ strength that can counter something a team might abuse.

[.Minimum]

what up, bases are cool.

EDIT: Okay, that was a little immature. The australian server (Yes, singular, not plural =P) recently held a large competitive game using Blackout. For those of you who don't know, Blackout is a Tremulous map in which the human team has a set of objectives to destroy and no base, and the aliens must defend them (Kind of like you are suggesting). As a competitive map, it worked extremely well, and during the game we had plenty of tactics flying around.

(demos are here: http://aussieassault.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38423&postcount=37)

Its a good idea to not have so much dependancy on the base, but bases work in competitive gameplay too, and it just wouldn't be Tremulous without them. You should have classic Tremulous base vs base style gameplay, but with more opportunities to create minibases around the map (for all sides - less campy, I think), as well as plenty of blackout style maps, or a mix (Start without a base until you get to a location as humans, once you get there, build a small base and hold it for 5 minutes or something).

[StalKer]

		Quote:			Sent by .Minimum on 08/14/10, 08:15 AM
	what up, bases are cool. EDIT: Okay, that was a little immature. The australian server (Yes, singular, not plural =P) recently held a large competitive game using Blackout. For those of you who don't know, Blackout is a Tremulous map in which the human team has a set of objectives to destroy and no base, and the aliens must defend them (Kind of like you are suggesting). As a competitive map, it worked extremely well, and during the game we had plenty of tactics flying around. (demos are here: http://aussieassault.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38423&postcount=37) Its a good idea to not have so much dependancy on the base, but bases work in competitive gameplay too, and it just wouldn't be Tremulous without them. You should have classic Tremulous base vs base style gameplay, but with more opportunities to create minibases around the map (for all sides - less campy, I think), as well as plenty of blackout style maps, or a mix (Start without a base until you get to a location as humans, once you get there, build a small base and hold it for 5 minutes or something).

Who still plays Blackout? Where?!?!?

		Quote:			Sent by StalKer on 07/20/10, 03:59 AM
	I personally believe that camping is a fundamental strategy in trem but right now I'd like to say how much this idea reminds me of blackout and the fact that humans had no actual base per se but just a few spawns and the fact that they had all the objectives to complete.

Great minds think alike 

[.Minimum]

		Quote:			Sent by StalKer on 08/14/10, 04:09 PM
	Who still plays Blackout? Where?!?!?

It was a one off thing. If you actually wanted to play Blackout on the server you've missed it by about a month.

		Quote:			Sent by StalKer on 08/14/10, 04:09 PM
	Great minds think alike

we r smrat

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